Discussion: How many empires make the most sense?

[Hygg 3]

Hey everyone,

 

I was just thinking about the extent to which the number of the usual three realms still makes sense these days.

 

There are certainly some of you who have been more or less active in the scene for more than a decade and have certainly been able to experience quite a few different server concepts over the years. It was always exciting to see servers with a single or just two empires. You would find these not only on newschool, but also oldschool servers.

 

Fewer empires would certainly be advantageous in that the players would be found much more concentrated on a map and even with a low number of total players, one would have the feeling that there is life on the server. Most of the time an empire was empty because players always had a bias towards one of the empires.

I also think that a different number of empires offers a lot more scope to be creative, as you could write a story in which you adapt your whole concept to e.g. two empires. Empire wars would still exist, if not with more action as you would find way more players on each side.

 

However, even with just one single empire, there are still ways to shape PvP in such a way that you continue to maintain a competitive climate among the players.

What do you think, how do you see it? Which arguments speak for or against it?

Cheers

Hygg

[AZICKO 7111]

My answer will depend on the gameplay I am looking for:

• Gameplay near the original game (3)
• Gameplay: Unification of kingdoms (1)
• Gameplay bis (2)

[Gurgarath 2437]

Many servers having a concept based on altering the empire system was only made for one purpose: reduce the number of people chosing the blue empire. Nothing out of the ordinary was created and this is a problem. First of all, people will always tend to prefer one empire because of nostalgia and many people will chose the blue empire because that's where the majority of people is. Creating a loophole, but anyway.

 

To fully alter the way empire work, or simply their number, you will need some knowledge, but you will also have to understand the artistic direction of the game, their choice, how the game was made and why there is three empire.

 

In my personnal opinion, Metin2, as it is, need to have three empire. Because it was designed like this in the lore, one empire being more oriented on commerce, one more based on war and so on. But this specific aspect of the game was a bit lost with time and the lore can still change if you want to change it. I won't even mention all the things that were supposed to happen and that were eventually ditched.

 

Most importantly, the game is made for three empire. Lore being aside, maps are designed for three empire, almost all of the original maps were divided in three part, all of them ending on a center that is HIGHLY disputed. Think about desert and the oasis, think about Orc map with the Orc Parties, think about snow mountain, flame map and so on. The only map that was not divided in three at the time was the Temple of Hwang and the DT fights were among the most large-scaled fights and this is still a place where people gather to fight now.

 

So, if you want to reduce or increase the number of empire, think about the lore and think about the maps, because otherwise it will lose a lot of interest, same for events. I think it can be something exciting, but only if the game is changed to really handle it at 100%, otherwise it would just feel like something is missing.

 

[Vanilla 1449]

In my opinion.. 3 is the way to go. I mean you'd try and use less empires but it'll only mask the problems, not fix them. A low playerbase is the biggest problem of all, so other empires may look empty.

And this is actually one of the things where a server admin can work on. Making the server attractive enough so it doesn't matter which kingdom you choose.

Second, you can always make the three empires interact with each other. Be it by events or by systems that make it work together. In the past I saw such things happen and people were wilingly changing empires. For example you'd do events by empire and then make the rewards for empires with less people bigger, so the playerbase will distribute wilingly. Raise the rates (exp etc.) for example for an empire that has less people there. All these are just ideas that might help fight the main problem.

The problem are not 3 empires, the problem is the distribution and lack of players.

[Hygg 3]

3 hours ago, ASIKOO said:

My answer will depend on the gameplay I am looking for:

• Gameplay near the original game (3)
• Gameplay: Unification of kingdoms (1)
• Gameplay bis (2)

 

So are you mainly looking for specific storylines when choosing between servers to play?

 

That's a really interesting way to look at it, as I always thought that the majority of players are unfortunately not that much into diving deeper into game stories. It seems they just simply want to play the game.

Sorry for asking, I just didn't get the last part. What does Gameplay bis mean?

 

1 hour ago, Gurgarath said:

Many servers having a concept based on altering the empire system was only made for one purpose: reduce the number of people chosing the blue empire. Nothing out of the ordinary was created and this is a problem. First of all, people will always tend to prefer one empire because of nostalgia and many people will chose the blue empire because that's where the majority of people is. Creating a loophole, but anyway.

 

To fully alter the way empire work, or simply their number, you will need some knowledge, but you will also have to understand the artistic direction of the game, their choice, how the game was made and why there is three empire.

 

In my personnal opinion, Metin2, as it is, need to have three empire. Because it was designed like this in the lore, one empire being more oriented on commerce, one more based on war and so on. But this specific aspect of the game was a bit lost with time and the lore can still change if you want to change it. I won't even mention all the things that were supposed to happen and that were eventually ditched.

 

Most importantly, the game is made for three empire. Lore being aside, maps are designed for three empire, almost all of the original maps were divided in three part, all of them ending on a center that is HIGHLY disputed. Think about desert and the oasis, think about Orc map with the Orc Parties, think about snow mountain, flame map and so on. The only map that was not divided in three at the time was the Temple of Hwang and the DT fights were among the most large-scaled fights and this is still a place where people gather to fight now.

 

So, if you want to reduce or increase the number of empire, think about the lore and think about the maps, because otherwise it will lose a lot of interest, same for events. I think it can be something exciting, but only if the game is changed to really handle it at 100%, otherwise it would just feel like something is missing.

 

 

I guess that if you want to alter the empire system, you really have to come up with new stories and maps. That's one requirement you just cannot skim over.

 

Otherwise, yes, it won't work, as players will search for the familiar and if you just erase one empire without changing anything else, people will be confused and it will look like a broken game.

For example, what if you create a new story where all of the events take place either before or after the original timeline?

 

War changes people and environments, so it could certainly be possible that one empire got destroyed and people had to flee. That would be a perfect docking site to continue writing a new storyline.

I have to agree with your opinion on map design, you definitely have a point there. Guess it wouldn't be that much of a problem if you keep most of the neutral maps and just change the spawn points maybe? Like if you decide for e.g. two empires.

 

36 minutes ago, Vanilla said:

In my opinion.. 3 is the way to go. I mean you'd try and use less empires but it'll only mask the problems, not fix them. A low playerbase is the biggest problem of all, so other empires may look empty.

And this is actually one of the things where a server admin can work on. Making the server attractive enough so it doesn't matter which kingdom you choose.

Second, you can always make the three empires interact with each other. Be it by events or by systems that make it work together. In the past I saw such things happen and people were wilingly changing empires. For example you'd do events by empire and then make the rewards for empires with less people bigger, so the playerbase will distribute wilingly. Raise the rates (exp etc.) for example for an empire that has less people there. All these are just ideas that might help fight the main problem.

The problem are not 3 empires, the problem is the distribution and lack of players.

But isn't this still a problem that you see on bigger servers? That the majority of people tend to choose the blue empire, so the others are quite empty?

 

As Gurgarath mentioned, it's like a loophole. You always want to go with the empire where most of the action is happening.

You're right though, as it's definitely important to keep some balance in the game, especially with the number of people in each empire. I'm just really curious how it might be possible to make the gameplay more efficient and enjoyable again.

Thanks for your insights, everyone! Keep the ideas coming, really appreciate it!

Edited November 17, 2020 by Hygg
Typos

[AZICKO 7111]

Quote

So are you mainly looking for specific storylines when choosing between servers to play?

 

That's a really interesting way to look at it, as I always thought that the majority of players are unfortunately not that much into diving deeper into game stories. It seems they just simply want to play the game.

Sorry for asking, I just didn't get the last part. What does Gameplay bis mean?

 

Gameplay bis: hooo, i'm sorry... it's my French language! 

 

Yes, if I have to play on a private server, I would like to discover the game again as I discovered it in 2009.

A private server that I would appreciate would be:

 

• A private server that is a sequel to the original game with for example a unification of kingdoms without forgetting to modify the maps, the quests and the story of the game.
• A private server with a story that has been worked on to re-discover the game.

 

The most important thing for me is to play on a private server which is different from the original game, I know the game, I need this feeling of discovery and difficulty with a new story, new maps, new quests.. Playing on a private server that looks like the official server doesn't interest me anymore  

[Vanilla 1449]

That's why I said, regardings bigger servers you have to make sure the players are distributed. And you can do that with many tools. You as an admin have the power to influence that. With let's say events, rewards for smaller empires and stuff. People will tend to change the empire in such cases if they are not in dire need for their old empire. People are afraid to use tools to make a better distribution of the empires.

 

You'd technically make the maps work with only 2 empires - why, for example, not make the maps for the third empire still be there? But make it like in ruins or something? This could go along with the idea of making this play after the war and having one empire be utterly defeated. This could still make all the maps keep their meaning, but of course, it feels a bit.... mehr in my opinion. I think 3 empires is the way to go.

[Alucard 233]

3 empire is the best option for me.

But for that u need to implement a gameplay that worth to be part of an empire.

The game was created for 3 empire with emperors at their heads.

Territory wars, empire wars and all the others events, not many servers use these systems.

What I want to say is that metin2 can also be a strategy game.

Elect your emperor, go to war to get territory, make alliance with another empire to beat the most powerful Empire.

But if there are only 2 Empire the game will not be as fun, that will erase all the soul of the game I think.

There is many thing to create better than 2 empire fighting for nothing or only empire fighting against Evil.

Even guild can be part of this, the better guild hire the emperor and ect u know what I mean there.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Alucard

[metho 4]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:48 PM, Vanilla said:

That's why I said, regardings bigger servers you have to make sure the players are distributed. And you can do that with many tools. You as an admin have the power to influence that. With let's say events, rewards for smaller empires and stuff. People will tend to change the empire in such cases if they are not in dire need for their old empire. People are afraid to use tools to make a better distribution of the empires.

 

You'd technically make the maps work with only 2 empires - why, for example, not make the maps for the third empire still be there? But make it like in ruins or something? This could go along with the idea of making this play after the war and having one empire be utterly defeated. This could still make all the maps keep their meaning, but of course, it feels a bit.... mehr in my opinion. I think 3 empires is the way to go.

What tools would you use to control the influence of a big server or would you do it manually to distribute the players everywhere on the map?

[Sonitex 1404]

There isn't any other way other than through events or the gameplay itself (change of the lore, environment rework, new game mechanics). You can empower players' damage, boost their experience rates, etc. Gameplay takes much more effort to be executed correctly and is kind of risky as the whole game is dependent on it/connected to it.

 

I personally haven't seen a server where players would be amazed with the 2 empire concept, unless it was a total rework of the gameplay. Three kingdom concept is much more appreciated from the player base side.

 

Guilds also have a pretty big impact on the player arrangement around the empires. 

[WeedHex 626]

3 Like official, you don't need to work for remove 

[Apranax 17]

All depends on how you want to build your gameplay. It can be 2 or 3, but for sure not 1 and not more than 3. 

Regarding the map divides, the current standard is to use the best possible place on each maps. Regardless where it is located on maps, and how you want to divide the empires. 

If the main goal is, to completely separate the empires, you need to rework all the current maps a bit, also you have to completely rework every regens. From a player perspective, I wouldn't want to be killed all the time on low levels, so it would make sense to separate maps in low level, and let the players fight for good places on higher levels. But as I said, it's mainly a gameplay question. But if you keep the concept original, for sure it's better to stay with 3 empires. I haven't seen yet any server to work on empires as the part of the gameplay, so I can't tell you an example. But the empire specific events would be a problem I guess, as lot's of people in the game is in guild, or married, so they can't change empire so easy. And those players for sure would questioned the higher rates or empire specific events. Players only care about the best available options, in every segments of the game. It's not the same game as it used to be, players are not exploring anything, they just rush as fast as possible. So if a certain empire gives even 1% advantage in anything, you can be sure that 90%-of players will go there. But i'm still kinda optimistic, that with a good gameplay plan you can kinda balance out the empires. But let's be honest, private servers don't give a shit about it, it takes time and tests. And players don't care either. So why would they care?

Edited February 4, 2021 by Apranax

[Alucard 233]

22 hours ago, Apranax said:

All depends on how you want to build your gameplay. It can be 2 or 3, but for sure not 1 and not more than 3. 

Regarding the map divides, the current standard is to use the best possible place on each maps. Regardless where it is located on maps, and how you want to divide the empires. 

If the main goal is, to completely separate the empires, you need to rework all the current maps a bit, also you have to completely rework every regens. From a player perspective, I wouldn't want to be killed all the time on low levels, so it would make sense to separate maps in low level, and let the players fight for good places on higher levels. But as I said, it's mainly a gameplay question. But if you keep the concept original, for sure it's better to stay with 3 empires. I haven't seen yet any server to work on empires as the part of the gameplay, so I can't tell you an example. But the empire specific events would be a problem I guess, as lot's of people in the game is in guild, or married, so they can't change empire so easy. And those players for sure would questioned the higher rates or empire specific events. Players only care about the best available options, in every segments of the game. It's not the same game as it used to be, players are not exploring anything, they just rush as fast as possible. So if a certain empire gives even 1% advantage in anything, you can be sure that 90%-of players will go there. But i'm still kinda optimistic, that with a good gameplay plan you can kinda balance out the empires. But let's be honest, private servers don't give a shit about it, it takes time and tests. And players don't care either. So why would they care?

It's not that players don't give a shit about it.

How can player say that he don't love it if he not tried it ? 

The main problem is that basics privates servers doing well so why do we need to put more work ?

I mean I already played some servers a bit of time, yeah u get into it but for a short amount of time because u do the same things every single day.

Make a good storyline and reworking the metin2 universe with news things to do like the Empire Battle (not only a empire battle where u need to kill others peoples is too common), I mean where is the innovation into that ? Players are stopping one after one but with news ideas u can bring news players.