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How about rebalancing armor/mres?


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Hello dear dev's,

 

I'm currently working on a bigger project (a server to be exact, but I won't mention it) and there I'm planning on reworking the way armor and magic resistance works.

 

For this I've taken inspiration from a game you may know (LoL). I saw metin2 lacks a few balance issues:

 

At first this is how armor/mres works in Metin2:

Whenever you receive damage, your armor (or mres) will act like a shield. Nothing more. It'll prevent a fixed amount of damage.

So you're receiving 100 raw damage, have the same level (and no buffs etc.) and got 50 armor, then you'll just receive 50 damage. If you have 20 armor, you'll receive 80 damage.

 

This may sound easy and it is easy to calculate with. BUT! There's a huge problem with it. Let's look for example the way critical strikes work.

Critical strikes double the raw damage. So what does this lead to?

Normally a critical strike would double the output of the damage, so let's say we've got the same example as above with our 20 armor, but now the strike deals critical damage. In normal cases, you'd receive 160 damage (80*2). But the way critical strikes work is different in metin2 as I mentioned above. First the damage will be doubled: 100*2=200. Then the 20 armor will come in effect: 200-20=180.

So we've got 20 more damage, the same value as your armor. This is the reason why the damage of critical strikes DOES indeed ignore the target's armor and it'll look like even if the victim builds up armor, he won't have a chance to actually defend against the critical strike damage.

 

Next problem: Burst damage will easily counter armor. Completely. And effectively.

So let's say you're using a magic skill which deals 4000 damage.

Now that you know that it's always reducing for a flat amount, you'll get the point now. Let's say you have 200 mres (not in reality, but let's assume). So you'll just have 4000-200=3800. Was the magic resistance really that effective? Now let's say we build up everything we can toward magic resistance. In the current game it's really hard to get high values. I don't know the actual maximum but you won't even come nearly to 1000 magic resistance - taken that you're completely conentrating on magic restistance to defend against those bad burst mages. What effect will that have? 4000-1000=3000. Yeah. Totally worth it.

 

That leads (in my opinion) to only one conclusion: Armor/Mres is totally broken in this game. And it isn't really fun to build magic resistance. That's why warriors can't tank, even if they really want to. Tanks are non-existent against burst characters, especially mages. And even building armor won't help you against boss fights where some bosses can easily knock you down even if you're damn tanky. While low values will help you get huge damage reduction against enemies who also don't have that high attack damage. So the current system allows you to easily take down low values of damage, but makes it nearly impossible to really defend against high damage values.

 

 

How could we fix this?

We'd easily recalculate how armor/mres works.

As I mentioned before I took my inspiration to this topic not only from seeing the broken mechanic but also from seeing mechanics that actually work. In my case: LoL. There they use a new formular:

 100 / (100 + armor) = damage factor

So that'd mean that armor won't take a flat amount of your damage. Instead, it'd create a factor that will actually scale with the damage you receive. So you won't be able to tank lower, but consistent damage that easy as it was before, but you will be able to take down bigger amounts of damage when building up more armor.

And! It'll also reduce the critical damage! Still don't believe me? Let's take the example from before!

We said we'd have 100 raw damage incoming. And let's say we got 20 armor. Normally, you'd receive 50 damage in that case. But our new formular allows us the following:

100/120 = 0.833 => Our new damage factor. Now let's apply this to our raw damage:

100 * 0.833 = 83.33 => 83 will be the new damage we receive.

And now to our bursty example to show how the new magic resistance actually would work. We receive 4000 incoming damage. And we have 200 mres.

100/300 = 1/3

4000 * 1/3 = 1333,33 => 1333 would be the new damage.

 

Well, such a drastic change would need to actually change how easily it is right now to get armor/mres. Because we saw in the example that only 20 armor would reduce incoming damage down to 83.33%. So we can't let characters start with huge armor values. Let alone a shield that gives you 253 armor...

If we'd rebalance the values, we'd enhance the fun for everyone and could make it possible to be a real tank. Why did I make this topic right now?

 

Just to hear your thoughts about it! What do you think about such a drastic change? Would you like? Would you acutally try it? Or do you have other formulars you'd present that'd actually fit in more to the higher values metin2 uses?

 

(side note: I've also rebalanced penetration to actually penetrate a % of the armor/mres and not providing a % chance to penetrate the whole armor/mres).

 

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Sorry, was a little unsure about where to post it since I'm still asking and trying to get other's thoughts about this topic. That's why I wasn't sure about it. Thanks for the move ^^

We are the tortured.
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:o. i really like the idea.

It will take time for people to get used to it, but it's way better then how it is now.

But you will have a lot of work to do. To rebalance all items, skills, and such things.

Good luck, and i hope you will do it :D

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I already thought about doing this but as STARK said it's much work so I simply took other ways. I also recalculated a bit (just a few things).

I think it would be awesome but I saw how much work this is so I wish you much luck!

Regards

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I've been always in favor of radical changes, but never been sure how the players can react on them. But by the time they can get used to it, provided that the server is enough good for them to play it.

Good luck! :)

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In my opinion if you will increase armor efectivity then you will need increase the weapons demage, otherwise  you would need to decrease the life amount too.

But i like the ideia :)

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so basicly or in other word your explcation for armor is :

metin2:

critic DMG = (Normal Dmg*2)-Armor Deffence

other game like LOL (league of legends):

Critic DMG = (Normal DMG- Armor Deffence)*2

this is logical for me and im totaly with it  :wub:  sence i myself suggesed this on the Vanilla core topic ;

but the magic resistence

may be still untested

i used to have 80% resistence + 20% from the bland + 80% sword deffence :lol: 2 sora will crash me :wacko:

give me a break

well the thing that i dont get till now is how weapon work on metin2 sence 6 years of playing time i dont get totaly dont get it :wacko:

when you have a very high str+int on sora (16k for example // yes some server have it this high and they still got player better than the top server) just use a lvl 1 sword you will take them all B)

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Uhm actually, Magic restance does not work well but, the magic restistance bonus in metin2 works well actually too well, if you have too high magic resistance on your server all shamans and suras are heavily nerved.

 

@Night

that would mean that if the hit is critical the defense is doubled too

 

CritDMG = 2NormalDMG - 2ArmorDefense

 

but well thats the easy solution

 

the damage factor would be a lot nicer

at the moment anyone in metin2 avoids defense because they think because of the penetrate bonus stuff they get more damage if they have more defense funny thats actually because of the critical hits

 

100 % critical hit bonus is about 30 percent actually

405 % critical hit bonus is 100 percent

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that's also an issue of balancing problems. 100% should be 100%, no matter what. But doing that would require to lower the bonuses.

 

Also, I've made a test with the new armor system and yeah. It really worked out and did it's job. You can clearly see a difference because I had to nerf all the armors, shields and helmets because they provided too much defense with the new system.

So now the recaluclation is:

1-4 base armor for lv1 armor +0 depending on your class (Warriors will get 4 while assassins only get 1 but get the dodge bonus to make sure classes are really classes!)

so 1-4 base armor with a rate +1 per grade and +1 per armor.

 

So let's say you have a warrior with 4 base armor on his lv1 armor+0 and then upgrade it to +9. It'll have 13 base armor then. That's a huge difference between the older armors, but it's still significant enough to make an impact. Now 1 armor is more valued than before because it won't prevent 1 damage but will reduce the damage overall by % with the new damage factor.

So yeah, what I was trying to say is that the whole game needs to be rebalanced with this. I also mentioned before that penetration shouldn't be a % to penetrate the whole armor, but a % to negate a part of the armor with every hit.

There are still so many issues, but it won't be a problem to fix them all. Rebalancing the game is a big goal and I think we'd do that if the community works together with giving their opinion, helping with ideas and give hints where rebalancing should be done.

 

I appreciate every one of your comments and I hope that the rebalancing will be successful. If it is, then I'll think about making this a community project from metin2dev, so everyone can share it. It's a step into a greater game I think. We just need to break through the old walls of metin2 and maybe we'll be able to create something new. Something better.

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Hm I really like the idea of it ( and this maybe could go well with additional changes such as lower values for ninjas but higher movement speed and avoiding damage chance etc.) Nevermind I just read the post above and saw that you were thinking about the same thing. But we would had to change the mob damage etc aswell so pvm would still be possible.

 

So a warrior in this system has 13 armor rating when having the lvl 1 armor +9. Normally he would have 66. That means he has ~ *5,1 less armor rating then before. If we now take the next armor which would have 14 base + 9 points for each grade means = 23 armor rating. The normal one has 75 which means we would only have ~ *3,2 less armor rating. If oyu continue this it would come to this:

123 as highest amror rate. Normally 320 which would equal in ~ *2,6 less armor rating. But these values differ alot between the different grades of armor so stricly following this concept wouldnt work either. Certain armors had to be given a higher standart value to match with the normal values but only if you want that of corse because maybe following this system completely would even be mre balanced then before.

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You're right.

 

Mob damage needs to be adjusted. I tested the new values on the first mobs and they didn't worked so well with the less armor you have now. Then I halved the damage of every mob just globally and now I'm testing these values (they seem to work by far better now but still needs some further testing). I hope there'll be no problem with mass fights sinde you aren't able to properly negate the whole damage (see the calculations below where I show that even with 300 armor you wouldn't possibly reduce the damage to 1 dmg).

I've made these change to achieve a damage reduction of ~ 30%- 40% just by getting the high equipment. If you still wanna build more defenses, you'd adjust your bonuses, add stones and do other things (but stones and bonuses needs to get nerfed too, they're too powerful otherwise).

 

Additionally there shouldn't be potions to enhance the defense by 200... That'd destroy the whole purpose of armor and would give you a damage factor of 0.3333 instantly. So yeah. You see what happens if something like that still persists in the game. That's why it was of utmost importance to nerf armors and especially shields because they achieved really high values just by getting and upgrading it to +9. If you'd have (like it was possible for normal characters like assassin's too!) at least about 300 armor just by normal equipment without bonuses then you'd have a factor if 0.25 which clearly shows where your damage goes - by building nothing, just upgrading your equipment.

 

That's the reason behind the huge armor/shiels/helmets nerf - the new way of letting armor work gives them such a high buff that it clearly needs to be tuned down to match the new system.

We are the tortured.
We're not your friends.
As long as we're not visible.
We are unfixable.

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1-4 base armor for lv1 armor +0 depending on your class (Warriors will get 4 while assassins only get 1 but get the dodge bonus to make sure classes are really classes!)

 

I would give Shamans only 1 while assassins would get 2. Suras 3 and warriors 4. Warriors would have lower speed then everyone else but highest rating. Suras have a mix of all. Assassins less armor but higher dodging and higher speed. Shamans have the lowest since they only wear a tunic but they have increased casting speed and mp. I would also set the armor rating of shamans to be increased less then the other classes for example shamans can get only 5 more points per grade etc. so the lvl 1 tunic could have maximum armor rating of 6. The next armor 11 etc. Assassins get 7, Suras 8 and Warriors 10. But Shamans and Assassins further increase there additional standart bonus that are on their armors when upgrading further.

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